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The World Through Zen Eyes Podcast
What we do?
Once a week we take a look at the going-ons of the world and say something about ‘em.
The goal?
None, really. Just trying to make heads and tails of the great world roar of Ooommmmmm.
Why?
To try ‘n keep a modicum of personal sanity. And stay off both the meds and the cool aid.
The point?
Points are sharp and therefore violent. We just go around, and round….and round.
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The views, perspectives, and humor of the speakers and guests of this podcast do not necessarily represent the those of any associated organizations, businesses, or groups, social, religious,cultural or otherwise. The entirety of the podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Topics discussed and views expressed do not constitute medical advice. As the saying goes “Opinions are like bellybuttons, everybody’s got one”.
The World Through Zen Eyes Podcast
Ep. 26 - 5 Roots: 3. The Fire of Perseverance
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What if the determination you're seeking isn't something you need to find but something you already possess? In this third installment of their mini-series on the five roots, Jörgen Sonnen and Dr. Ruben Lambert explore the fascinating concept of perseverance (jongjin) and how we can transform this innate quality into a conscious power.
The conversation reveals a profound truth: determination isn't something we lack but something we direct. Think about it—the teenager seemingly unmotivated to study might wait all night outside a store for limited-edition sneakers. The apparent absence of perseverance in one area often masks its powerful presence in another. This insight transforms how we understand motivation, both in ourselves and others.
Using rich metaphors of electricity, fire-building, and leaning, the hosts illuminate the delicate art of nurturing determination. Like building a fire, motivation requires progressive kindling—add too much too quickly and you smother the flame; neglect it and it dies out. This wisdom applies powerfully to parenting, self-development, and spiritual practice alike. The hosts contrast this human process with the algorithmic precision of digital systems designed to capture our attention, highlighting the challenges of nurturing authentic motivation in the modern world.
Perhaps most valuable is their perspective on self-care and practice. "Don't pencil yourself in—sharpie yourself in," they advise, encouraging listeners to prioritize meditation and personal growth with the same commitment we give to professional obligations. By recognizing that we and others are "under construction" and working with the same fundamental building blocks, we can approach growth with both determination and compassion.
Want to be part of our community? Share your thoughts by sending a voice message to 908-591-1754. Your insights might inspire others on their journey. And if you've found value in these teachings, consider making a small donation to help keep this program going. The transformation of roots into powers awaits—will you lean into the practice?
Dr. Ruben Lambert can be found at wisdomspring.com
Ven. MyongAhn Sunim can be found at soshimsa.org
My name is Donna and I'm a friend of the Soshimsa Zen Center. The World Through Zen Eyes is brought to you by Buddhist monks trained in the art of harmonizing spirituality and well-being. If you're interested in content related to fostering self-discovery and positivity, we're asking you to consider making a small donation to assist with keeping this program going.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to another episode of the World Through Zen Eyes podcast. I'm Jörgen Sonnen here with Dr Ruben Lambert. Welcome back. Let's get to the root of things Again, part three. Today We've been talking about the Dharma of Ogun, the five roots and the transformation of it that brings them to be the five powers. And if there are people, yet again, who have not heard the very first one or the previous one, sometimes people just listen all over the map, this is sort of a mini-series, if you will. The five roots We've gone through the root of belief, xingun. We've talked about yomgun, root of wakefulness or awareness.
Speaker 3:Today is what Today is jongjin perseverance.
Speaker 1:One of my favorite topics.
Speaker 3:actually, I do a lot of this kind of work with students. I talk about the importance of perseverance with them Perseverance, determination, zeal.
Speaker 2:You know you could name it. Many things, but just to rehash the idea, the concept, the general concept, zeal you know you could name it. Many things, but just to rehash the idea, the concept, the general concept. The roots are these things that are innately within us. You're born into this world, you've got them. They manifest in our daily lives automatically. Now here's what we want to do. We want the automatic to be turned into purposeful, conscious, directed, and so that's the transformation of the root. The roots, as roots are, are beneath the surface of the knowing mind. Let's call it that. So beneath the transformation of the root, the roots, as roots are, are beneath the surface of the knowing mind. Let's call it that so beneath the surface of the soil.
Speaker 2:When those things, this root of belief, let's say, sprouts into your daily life behavior, is informed by it. We are all informed by so many things, right? We're informed by the weather and not sort of I'm informed about the current events, kind of informed. No, we're informed unknowingly. We're informed by our kojong kwanyeom. We're informed by our karma. We're informed by our kojong kwanyeom. We're informed by our karma. We're informed by our traumas. We're informed by our repressed memories. We're informed by our cup of coffee, we're informed by our ill-digested, whatever last meal may be. All of these things are informing us one way or another. Hormonal imbalance, due to whatever is informing. So all of these things are informing us.
Speaker 2:When it comes to nature, the sort of fundamental nature, these ogun, these five roots too, inform us in that way. We behave by the silent whisper of them and we don't largely know. And so the idea of the five roots and then subsequently the five powers is ah, there is this innate thing. How do I harness it? How do I redirect it? How do I make something conscious, purposeful out of it? And when you do, that is called the power. So today, like I said, we've talked about the root of belief, we've talked about the root of wakefulness or awareness, or mindfulness.
Speaker 3:I think that you're describing there a beautiful process that has been the mystery of mankind throughout the ages. Right, we've always wondered and explored and discovered, and before we discovered, certain things in nature always existed and, whether we knew about it or not, it impacted our daily lives. There are countless things I could describe. I just thought of, maybe like electricity for the moment. Right, there was lightning, there's electrical currents inside of our body, and certain aspects of the earth has grounding, and so forth and so forth. And it wasn't until we discovered now how to harness that that we can use it. And then now, here we go. We had today we have the power of electricity being used with the purpose of, you know, x, y and Z, whatever it is. Whether you're in a lecture hall in the middle of the night, or you're working in a factory throughout the night, or you're driving your car throughout the night, you're harnessing the power electricity that always is and always was, yeah, always functioning, just until we were aware of it the roots learned to manage it.
Speaker 3:The root was there yeah, right, but then we turned it into oleo. Now it's literally in your daily life. You can see the power of electricity. If you're listening to this right now, electricity is working and inside of your brain the electricity is working.
Speaker 2:So many things, yeah, the North and South Pole energetic, you know, we just had it last month or so the shift, they switch polarities, in a sense. Those kind of things are when you look at the cup of coffee and you've poured your hot coffee and you dribble a little bit of creamer into it and you see the swirl go on and we say, oh, it's just, it's the hot liquid rising to the top. The cold, the mixing, this whole thing is already in existence. Everything is so, like I said, it's the discovery of what is is what happens. It's not new stuff, in a sense. In a way of looking at it, it's new because we haven't seen it yet. But all the discoveries are discoveries of, in a sense, things that have that nature as in existence. If it didn't, and if it wasn't, it couldn't be.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:So all that is is because it already the innate potentiality for those things are there.
Speaker 3:The seeds are there. It just next needs the layers to be, I guess, shed, and then the inyon to be made, and then kaboom, and that's largely the premise of the idea that enlightenment is a possibility for everyone.
Speaker 2:On the account of that very thing, it's innately already. The thing we're searching or the thing we're trying to discover is innately existing in us. And if it wasn't, no one could. Or if some people had it, those people could, and if other people didn't have it, those people couldn't. Everybody, everybody has it, and this is the case with the roots.
Speaker 2:And so today, determination, perseverance, zeal, and the pairing usually is that the perseverance is paired frequently, sort of in a sense, with patience, the ability to endure and persevere through. It's a little bit different if we get into nitty gritty nuances, but anyway, diligent and perseverance as existing automatically. Sure, this is within. When we look at the biology of the natural world, we could see that things persisting, things that at times we even consider not alive, everything has a sort of innately existing determination and perseverance. And then we could get to sort of some what the motivations are, you know, sort of propagation of species or whatever, you know zeal for life, or the motivation themselves as to why persevere and why the determination, why the zeal. That's a whole different can of worms, if you will.
Speaker 2:and so the why we are not so much concerned here, what the goal is, in a sense, but that the this is, this is similar to worry. We sometimes say to someone, oh, you're worrying too much, and frequently they say I don't think, I don't have anything to worry about really. And they miss the thing that there must be a thing to worry. I'm talking specifically about a thing your leg, your health, your car, your car, your ear, your roof, your whatever. That's not necessarily, um, what I'm addressing in a person worry period.
Speaker 2:What the worry is about is really of no consequence sometimes, right. So sometimes it's it's directly distinct how to unbind oneself from it. But generally speaking, sometimes it's, yeah, you worry too much, not about the one thing, because if you have the proclivity towards worrying, then the number of things you're going to worry about is endless, limitless, because you could worry about. Look at a tree, you could worry about every single leaf on that tree. So it's not so much as the target or the why, but just simply the worry itself. And so determination, what's that saying?
Speaker 3:I think just think about that. But I think determination and patience can help us endure through times of hardship where worry might want to take over your mental sphere. I just had a patient yesterday tell me about this three-month lull that she had where she was not employed. And then yesterday she told me she did finally get a job but she couldn't sleep and she worried oh so much throughout those three months.
Speaker 2:I just presented to her the idea now she can't sleep because the upcoming job the mind.
Speaker 3:Just, it's just. I almost, I almost connected to a similar mindset. To like the hypochondriac. You know hypochondriac could have a pain in the knee. You can excavate the knee, you can carve it out, you can show them every single inch of the knee and then close it back up.
Speaker 2:You could amputate the whole leg.
Speaker 3:There's nothing there, and then the next day they'll be like no, it's my ear. Now it's my ear. And yeah, like you're describing, it's sort of just like the warped mirror. The mirror is warped and it doesn't matter the object that you put in front of it.
Speaker 2:Whatever object it looks at, it's going to distort it and warp it. Necessity is the mother of all inventions. That's what I was talking about, and so this pursuit. I don't know why, necessarily, that came up in my mind but it is that kind of thing.
Speaker 3:It's a driving force.
Speaker 2:It's a driving force. It's a driving force and that's the more survivalist kind of thing. And so the existing determination that we have, everybody has, and the question is what amount of it is known to us and acknowledged. And so this is a useful thing to consider. These roots are very useful in cases where a seeming or an apparent lack of these things in a person's life is Like I can't motivate, I don't have the determination, and the person thinks it's something that must be procured, something that.
Speaker 2:But we haven't sifted through the old, you know, through in-house, haven't looked in our own existence, in our own day-to-day activities, in our personality traits. I say, oh, that person is sort of lazy. Speaking of which, for each one of the roots there is the powers, and for each one of those then there is a hindrance. Also we haven't mentioned that which is in a wet appetite, perhaps a little bit right. So we have ogun or yok or jaye, which is the hindrances to that. So I have it. I have in me the root of determination. What is the hindrance to transforming it into a power, or what is the hindrance of it expressing itself in my life? And in a case of this it's laziness, but so it's obvious. I mean, no one's in the audience just gasped in awe of enlightened thought. Wow, the hindrance to determination is laziness right.
Speaker 3:Well, it is not something you know, magical, mysterious, but there's so many people that know the word and are actually engaging in laziness and they can't get out of their rut, whatever the situation is, and they still don't have this self-awareness to do anything about it. They just function and operate. I have another patient who is aching and dying inside to get a new job, and so, you know, I ask them are you undead? What are you doing?
Speaker 2:And yeah, I'm undead, that's it, that's it, that's it yeah you know.
Speaker 3:So in my mind, I think to myself well, why is it that this person you know, and I see that he's intelligent, he has a good background, good qualifications, but why? Why is nothing coming?
Speaker 3:into his life and in my head I'm like I think he's lazy and he's not self-aware of it and and if you have a conversation with him, he understands like, oh, you can't be lazy in order to get what it is that you want. So I think, yeah, the word is one thing, but there are still many people out there that, even though they hear the word, they don't have the ability to turn the eye inward and make that connection and be like, oh, this is where my own actions are falling short. My own behaviors are not complying or matching with the goal that I have in mind for myself. So I I think, on what you're saying, yes, on the surface, yeah, it's nothing new that was discovered or nothing magical that's gonna like be life-altering but again, like we've always said, when you dig past the word you have to think.
Speaker 3:When you think and you actually find the and you point to what the word is referring to, for me at that moment that is like a the trajectory of your life is altered in that very instant and that to me is magical, that to me is profound. When people get it, my goodness, that is a whole different thing, right? Because that is like the next day you wake up and you're just a completely different person yeah, it's words right yeah, that's all these episodes tied to one another, because word you know, words are symbolic.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, words are symbols and they're symbolic. And then the question begs asking I understand the word, but I want to know, or what I need explained, or what I need to think about, is its implied meaning? Because let's dissect perhaps a little between laziness and capacity, and so laziness and capacity or incapacity, incapable or unable, are very different things, absolutely. So, what we get is and this is frequently again a misunderstood thing. You would never say of a depressed person that they're lazy.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 2:If somebody walked in and maybe they're looking at them and looking and I'm illustrating a very kind of crude imagery here but the person is just in bed or on a couch and their clothes hasn't been changed, they haven't done all these things. But you would never say to them or about them that they are lazy. We would say that they're ill, that they're sick, that they're depressed, what have you? And it's interesting because then even allotted time of depression I think with the new DSM, from the last version of DSM, to the length, the acceptable length of mourning, post-mourning sort of depression, right, and the criteria for depression were changed.
Speaker 2:We used to be like, okay, you lost a loved one, right, you kind of it's normal that there's a mourning period, but if you go over that threshold now we could start talking about well, now you're quote unquote depressed Prior, today we're just mourning. But they've changed the timeline and it's not like two weeks difference, it's like six months or something crazy, right. And so it's not a depressed person is not lazy. There is, in a sense, a capacity. They're unable're unable, incapable, they don't have the capacity at the time to motivate themselves. And then you know, but then we also, you know, a lot of parents would say that of their, of their.
Speaker 3:You know some spouses talk about one another in that way and you know their teenage children, the kids all the time, so many times I see parents impose their idea of what they're capable of doing right, or what they expect or what they were able to do when they were that age, onto their teenage child, and they have no clue as to what their capacity at that very moment is.
Speaker 2:Those comparings are a horrible idea, it just doesn't work when I was your age. When you were my age, you weren't living in a post-epidemic post-epidemic apocalyptic existence.
Speaker 3:There were no computers. Let's just start with that. There was no internet, no computers, no AI.
Speaker 2:That's why it's not a fair way to look at it. Oh, when I was your age, or when I was at such a grade, or when I was. That means nothing. It tears away the uniqueness of time and place and it disregards developmental kind of trajectory right kind of trajectory right or or the, the the rhythm of the development where kids used to be born, you know, with their eyes closed and no hair, and now they're born with a full-grown beard, eyes open and and a instagram account they're born like that, and so that's the emotional that's the emotional component that gets added into the equation when people are looking at their children or someone that they love and they're judging them.
Speaker 3:But then when you give them the example of capacity, if you say, let's say, all right, I want to, you have your backyard, we want to make a pool, let's say 20 feet by 20 feet, we got to dig a hole, you know eight to ten feet deep. And then you tell them, you know you take you and your wife go dig that hole with shovels, how long feet deep? And then you tell them, you know you take you and your wife go dig that hole with shovels, how long would it take? And then you say, two excavators, how long would it take? And they would understand that there's a difference in how quickly that could be done. Right, because the capacity of the shovel and two people is different from the capacity of two excavators.
Speaker 3:It's plain, as it's very clear to the person. But the thing is a of these uh, obstacles and hindrances in the psyche, we cannot see them. So people have a very difficult time. Well, those with much dust in their eyes cannot see them, right. Those who are trained, those who are trained in the healing arts, those who practice meditation and really try to look into the depths of another person.
Speaker 2:They can but yeah, I was talking to someone and and they said how they overcame their anger. And they said I wasn't practicing, and and what they meant I was? I wasn't doing suhang. And they said that's you have to consider. We are born into this world. It is practice. Every step of the way, way, every situation we are faced with is for the purpose of some kind of development, growth, et cetera, et cetera. You know, if we operate on a karmic, habitual sort of route, then we're again and again, and again, again. There's very little deviation from that, but nonetheless there is practice. So life itself is practice. That's why we say things like you know, life is a meditation, or life is, you know, prayer, kido is life, and all those kind of things.
Speaker 2:Right, and what they meant is that, you know, I haven't, I wasn't practicing at the time when I, when I sort of overcame my anger issues, I was just living life and you know, just happened to, something struck me. And well, exactly it, something struck me, right that there was a convergence of a state of mind, the, a situation, etc. Etc. This is the same thing. So that moment for that person of transforming their anger or at least to some degree coming to grips with it, was wafted into the conscious mind via the roots that already existed. So they were doing a thing that I would call practice, but they weren't consciously saying I'm practicing, you know, being patient, or I'm practicing. It kind of just happened. So, and this is how the transformation of roots into power are, because now that person is a practitioner. So now they could say I, now I am practicing, you know, because there's a sort of curriculum that they're adhering to that is now makes them do things in a certain way, knowing so it's informed life. So we have the, you know, there's kind of just go about your way and, and you know, things will happen or may happen, or may take seven lifetimes to happen, what have you? And then we have the same thing, the same life.
Speaker 2:But if we are, if we go about it in an informed way, where we're transforming and utilizing these roots that are going to inform our lives anyway just not in an organized, directed fashion, you know, we could make more progress in less of a time, potentially. So how do you apply yourself to that? That is diligence. That is the diligence of how you tend to the needs of existence. So this laziness, since we've introduced it, this laziness in terms of it being the hindrance to it, in terms of it being the hindrance to it, is different than capacity, as we talked about, and a teenager. When we just look from the lens of laziness, we're not looking at the totality of the person, the capacity of them. Right, we could say that they just simply don't know how to motivate, but that's not even the case. They are very much motivated.
Speaker 2:They're very much motivated to just other things make good impression with their friends, have a robust social life, get the new sneaker. They're motivated, they're. You know. If you maybe don't give them an allowance and you tell them they have to, you know, trim the hedges with the tweezers and if they want those shoes, they're going to be very motivated, and I have. They might not be motivated to help you bring your groceries in from the car after you've been shopping, right? But so it's not that there's laziness Across the board.
Speaker 3:Right, and that's what parents kind of do. They just do a blanket statement, period and they miss. Well, if he can stay and play on the computer or play a video game for a certain amount of time, that's patience. Why can't they? That's endurance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, computer or play a video game for a certain amount of time that's patient, that's endurance.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. And if you want to move them from there, you have to look at the fundamental seed at work there. Right like they are, they do have the capacity for motivation, they do have the capacity for endurance, they do have the capacity for patience undirected or directed by and and it's, it's a.
Speaker 2:it's a heavy sort of load because the brain chemistry, magic that happens on account of video games and social media, you know a boring parent is up against an industry of brilliant minds, brilliant in.
Speaker 2:however, you want to define the world, but minds that understand habit forming, that understand brain chemistry, the IV drip of your dopamines on the account of a meme or a thing that you like seeing, and the algorithmic calculation of just how to systematically shorten and shorten or lengthen and lengthen your space between your favorite image and then the next frame of image. But they have to cram a lot of advertisement in there. So how systematically talk about patience, machined patience, because it's a machined way of doing it, but a human being, like a parent, hasn't frequently the patience.
Speaker 3:No, they don't have the vision. I had a patient. I used to help him. I worked at a high school Union High School and he wouldn't do that good in school. He had no patience, let's say for school. He would cut class. But I remember that time period, this kid, he had a huge sneaker collection and I would ask him about it, like, how'd you get those Jordans or these new, the latest drops for Nikes? This guy would wait outside a footlocker the night before, like starting at like 10 pm, and then the store would open, like the next day at like 8 o'clock in the morning, sitting in a chair. I was like, dude, you have the patience of a Zen master, right, you know. And so the parents would always complain, but we can't see the transformation. Today that skill transferred over into real life and now he's a supervisor at a PACNG, he's an executive, and it took him about eight years to get the job of applying, not getting in, applying, not getting in, and he's in there, applying, not getting in, applying, not getting in.
Speaker 2:And now he's in there Perseverance, sitting outside of the front door of the application office, sort of you know, and now he's successful.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but at the moment parents were so worried and scared and because they couldn't see they only saw the lack of motivation towards the classes they couldn't see, like the root, the seed that this kid had for patients. It was just misdirected at the time. So we need a little bit of um, guidance and and learning to essentially channel that towards a goal that's, you know, going to bring a more benefit and it is a challenging. It is challenging though it is challenging for parents at that time period because it's the patient's rest, right?
Speaker 2:Like I said, it's the, let's say, if we go back to gaming and things like that, the machined, calculated way in which you sort of they're reeled in, it's machined. And parents, they don't have the perseverance that a machine system has, they don't have the perseverance to spark an interest and a spark, right, you, if you starting a, a fire from a spark there's, you can't just have logs that you want to set ablaze with a spark. You need, let's say, let's, let's say, five layers, five levels of kindling, right? So, if you catch a spark, then let's say a cotton ball, something very fluffy and very soft, very rapidly ignitable, right?
Speaker 3:that's, yeah, like those shavings. I've seen, I've seen for my grill like they sell little shavings of wood to catch, but so, but then.
Speaker 2:So you first let's say you have the spark, you catch the spark, and and like, like I said, a cotton ball, let's say yeah, have the spark, you catch the spark. And, like I said, a cotton ball. Let's say and then from the cotton ball you move to something little bit very thin shavings, like you said, so you could use pencil shavings, or just scraped off a little bit fuzz, in a sense of now a little bit more dense materials like wood, and then tiny little you know you could do grass, and then you got a little tiny little twigs and then a little bit thicker that's a good example.
Speaker 2:And then little by little by little you can make, get to the wood a trunk of a tree, a blaze, right, but parents want trunk.
Speaker 2:Now fire. And the machined algorithmic, systemic technique has got all the little things, the plush cotton ball of reward. For just the tiniest spark of your interest, you get a reward. That's what I call the IV drip of dopamine. For just the tiniest spark of your interest, you get a reward, right. So I call that like the IV drip of dopamine, right? It's like you get the little lick and then you know they measure, but they measure just when the hunger, the addictive hunger, starts, and then they give you. Just as you're drifting off, websites do that. Sometimes You're on a website and should you move your mouse to the top of the screen, which is to say you're about to navigate away from the website, out comes a pop-up hey, you want 20% off. It doesn't just, some of them are just by timing, but some of them are just. They track the movement of the cursor right and so if you're moving towards the top of the thing like uh-oh, he's heading for the door, it's like a last minute help.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's like hey, hey how about 20% off?
Speaker 2:Or how about you know whatever, just don't get rid of me. Or hey, maybe you don't like it. Now sign up for our mailing list. You know, period. You know so in day-to-day interaction to mimic or to utilize that kind of a systemic thing. And parents want just an account of and I'm not saying it's right or wrong, right, but an account of. I am your parent, and that's why we get the commentary that we get. Why Because I said so, that's rough, right, that's a rough thing.
Speaker 2:Because that worked when the dynamic between child and parent was very different than it is today, when we had what we called home education, where the family sort of ate at the table and during the dinner conversation was had meaningful conversation, not what kids now would imagine as interrogation how was school? What did you do? Did you? Who wants to be subject to that right? And so it's a rough kind of thing. The competition is what's that? The Terminator-esque right? We're sort of man versus machine in a sense. And so, to understand, when we understand the psychology of these kind of things and we understand, you know, I say psychology, but when we understand how things unfold in life, we have to adhere to that we can't go if you've sparked a thing of interest for a child. I had the, I had a someone that I was talking to, and their, their child, seemed very unmotivated and and you know the typical thing, and they went on a trip, a family trip, and when I asked about how was the trip, they said, oh, you know, my son really kind of was enlivened by it, you know, sort of as if walking up out of a torpor, you know, and he was alive, you know, looking up from the phone and doing this and doing that, and so that's why I said you have to exploit this, and this is not necessarily the kind of negative connotation of the word exploit, but you have to explain meaning. There is the spark. You have to. You know, when you again, when you get a spark and you see a little bit smoldering, you know you blow on it ever so gently, not with the oh, now go and do it.
Speaker 2:This is the other thing that frequently happens. Parents see and this isn't parents, we say parents, but think about your own mind, never mind even parents, but these are just examples you see a tiny smolder of interest and then there is a because, if we continue with this idea of a parent. Then a parent becomes overjoyed by the fact that, oh, I found something that my child now is interested in other than looking at a computer screen, right, and so there's a manic panic. Want to now, and this is true. We see this again. If we go back to this idea of making a fire, if you too quickly add the next level of kindling, you smolder the thing. If there's not enough airflow, the fire won't continue developing. And this is the thing. Parents smolder, yeah, they overstep, yeah, and they suffocate the oxygen out of the flame. And of course, their intention is good, it is good.
Speaker 2:But it's backed by emotional response oh, yes, okay. And then maybe you book 1,750 family field trips and you murder that spark. So it's how to add air and space and how to systematically and progressively add the next level thickness, or the of kindling. How do you do that? And this is another challenging thing you have to watch the fire right. You have to look at the vice, see on. Oh, it's developing. Okay. Now, ever so gently add a little bit. You know, know this thing and the interaction with children and parents time-wise doesn't really afford that observation to the degree to which a machined, monitored, algorithmic robot brain keeps you know and this is I've've learned this in a sense, working in school yeah a group of kids, your classroom full of kids.
Speaker 2:One comes up and makes a request and you, and let's say you say all right, well, maybe maybe next week, right. And you just say maybe next week, right. And you just say maybe next week. You say how can we do this activity? Okay, maybe next week. Right now we have this particular, you know, thing that we have to complete. Another one comes up and says how can we do it, and it says yeah, another time right.
Speaker 2:And maybe you say all these things and you just go about your business and you come back next day and guess what? Every just go about your business and you come back next day and guess what? Every one of those kids remembers exactly the promises you've made, right? And now all of a sudden, it's like you said next week, but you told me next week and you've forgotten 17 000 times. Right, you and this is true also with with children and the adults, or this is the same idea of not watching the fire closely enough. You give up ground. Yeah, right, because, again, it's not comparing anybody's children to prisoners, okay, to inmates. No, no, no, we're not doing that. But it's the same dynamic, right? An inmate will befriend the guard, sweet talk the guard, whatever, whatever.
Speaker 2:And this isn't to say that. It's always some rotten motivation, but they'll get a cigarette after six months of smooching up to or whatever the expression is up to a guard right, a correction officer or anything. Why? Because you're befriending them and it's like hey, frank, can I get a cigarette man? And they've created a rapport and whatever, and maybe that cigarette goes right.
Speaker 3:But once you give that one cigarette, that's the foot in the door, technique Right, and that's why that coldness. They can get in and get more.
Speaker 2:And that's why that coldness, now they can get in and get more, and that's why sometimes we see that sort of very cold, aloof, what is then considered as rude and obnoxious demeanor, let's say, in this case from the correctional, but it's because it's a. They say, well, come on on, I'm just a human being, but yes, but we're in a certain kind of a system and you have, you know, then they're forced to lock down and buckle down lest you become exploited. And, and this is the same mechanism that cults, you know, override the intelligence of a person. Right, you could have 17 PhDs, and why are you wearing your underwear on your head and standing on one leg on a rooftop? Because the spaceship is coming, that kind of thing. So it's that same idea.
Speaker 2:Kids will apply and the way that the persistence and this is Chongjin, right, the kid, in a sense, will lean against you. And this is again we're talking about school, but this is true, for it's the same principle, right, they will lean against you If your door opens. Let's say somebody walks in and they pull the door open to walk in, and on this side of the door you lean a broom against that door. When they pull the door, that broom is going to fall.
Speaker 2:In other words, it's going to gain ground.
Speaker 2:And so this is where determination works.
Speaker 2:You lean yourself against the thing, and we have in Zen and in Buddhism, you lean against, you lean on the Buddhism, the Bodhisattvas, you lean on the teachings, you lean on theattvas. You lean on the teachings, you lean on the Sangha, you lean on it, right, and this is a kind of similar thing. So, in this case, they lean and whatever minuscule step back that you take becomes the new frontier, and it's in that progressive, systematic way that the diligence of your child will progressively, systematically and slowly eat up the ground of mutual respect, right? Or the idea of some kind of authority, right? It's these small, incremental things. And then, next thing, you, you know, you wake up and and you know you want to get a matching tattoo with your 15 year old. You know, because you're the best friends, kind of thing, and and you've, you know, perhaps not providing that which the parenting job requirement calls you to provide, in a sense, and also listen, if you want to get a matching tattoo with your 15-year-old, that's your personal business. We're talking about the mechanism of determination and perseverance.
Speaker 3:I think, yeah, when you lean on your practices, meditation, some of your worries and fantasies of doom start to fizzle away, when you can truly lean and just be persistent in the task at hand. And this becomes part of your meditation, right, because the worry and the pessimistic thinking pulls you away. And then what you are to do is you're to use your perseverance to push away from that and get back to the task at hand and lean on what your method of practice is. For example, it is well known and well documented that breathing can calm your nervous system and get rid of worry, improve your memory, improve your clarity of thought there's a million things. We can go on and on and on. Improve your clarity of thought there's a million things. We can go on and on and on.
Speaker 3:But how often do people really lean into just the breathing practice and just zhong jin? Sit with the perseverance like a train, chugut, chugut, chugut, chugut to the destination. That's the goal, that's what we want. The perseverance will keep you there. But so many times people will then yeah, but, I did it, but, but, but, but. If it's a question and a valid question, sure, but sometimes that but is that rubber band effect, just pulling you right back into that dark cloud, into that deep hole where you're now drowning once again. So I love that idea of leaning in and just persevering, and then you land when you fall on your goal.
Speaker 3:I believe, whatever it is you're working?
Speaker 2:yeah, pop cooking stresses that the tree that leans to the west falls to the west. I love that phrase. It's that sort of idea, right, and so if you lean on, let's say amitabh you, you fall towards amitabh if you lean on, you know. So what do we lean on? What we um?
Speaker 3:but people say I do it. People say I do it. Then we're gonna get into words once again. But if you can, well, you know, I, I, that's what I want to hone in on is yeah, we're not talking about saying you did it, you know.
Speaker 2:You know, kafka has it just brilliantly. Uh, evil is that whichever distracts, oh man that is just finger-licking goodness right there.
Speaker 3:That is really good yeah because the mind can conjure up a defense against something where it'll say, like I couldn't do it, you know, because I had to go to church, I couldn't do it because, you know, I had to fold the laundry, and those are all functional, necessary things in life, but the mind is conjuring up something that is supposed to be good Distract. We won't use that word, though, oh I will. That's why that finger looking good.
Speaker 2:Evil is that which distracts. It's your laundry is evil. If your laundry is evil, your laundry is evil If you're supposed to be doing something else, if you wanted to get your doctorate if you had to tend to a sick child.
Speaker 3:It's the timing.
Speaker 2:A sick parent? Yeah, and that's why, at that moment, how frequently do we prescribe, quote, unquote an organization? How do you schedule your thing? Organization, how do you schedule your thing? How frequently do we talk about with people of this is, what you need to consider is how you're utilizing your time, and I'm not talking about this psycho grind fetish that we're seeing, micromanaging every iota of the thing, you know, I stand on one leg to strengthen my, my, my ankle muscles while I eat a sandwich and answer my emails and, and you know I'm also fanning or the the cryptocurrency computer at the same time, and so you know it's just crazy, right, but but it's, and people who've been to our meditation classes know how frequently I talk about this.
Speaker 2:Don't pencil yourself in. You sharpie yourself in. And when you sharpie yourself into your calendar, you don't put such a silly thing as meditation I'm going to do meditation. You put in there you have a meeting. A silly thing as meditation, I'm going to do meditation. You put in there you have a meeting. And when you look at it, somebody says, hey, can we go out to whatever? Do you have time? And you could pull out your phone and say, oh, I can't, I have a meeting, and the chances are they won't ask you with whom. But if they do, you say I have a meeting With who? With the president of the universe. I have a meeting with a very, very important client. I have a meeting with a very, very important person. I have a meeting with a very important, very. Oh, I can't miss this meeting. This is the attitude with which to approach your scheduled of self-care, and we've talked about this also. You care for yourself, then self-care for yourself. To be distracted by the organization is the issue frequently. What?
Speaker 2:is urgent, what is important?
Speaker 3:et cetera, et cetera. Everything can't reach the same level of importance. Oftentimes tell people I give the emergency room example right Right, Everyone that arrives there. When you're doing triage, you have to weigh and value the immediate, urgent necessity. A fever doesn't get the same amount of attention as a gunshot wound, right Right, it's just a very obvious thing. So you have to organize things in a similar fashion. Or I sometimes tell people we can take all the furniture out of this room in an organized fashion, in an order, but if we take them all out at the same time, nothing goes out. Nothing goes out and people's life goes into a stall Constipation, traffic jam yes, so heed the warnings.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:So cheers to the transformative power of applied self, taking the roots and making the roots into actionable, directed, meaningful, purposeful work, life, existence, whatever you want to call it. Um, but know that you have these, that these are innate within you, and it's also helpful to know that they're innate in others.
Speaker 3:So if we are to be, perhaps, a Well, if you're a parent or you're working with another individual who's maybe not pulling their weight as much as you those points of friction in your life it could be an in-law, a loved one, someone on the road that you're driving next to, an old building blocks of who they are and the building blocks of who I am are in fact the same.
Speaker 2:These capacities or I'm sorry, not these capacities, but these potentials are there, and so just to say that their heaven bloomed is true, and then to say, to criticize, or what have you is? You know, I've gave out this sort of mantra under construction, when you look at the other person under construction, and then there's a second part of it me too under construction, that person under construction, me too. And we could then sort of soften the edges and kind of relax a bit and somehow strive for a communal, collective betterment of one another, because we are going to be, in whatever expression of being, of benefit to one another. Someone might be of benefit by their action to tell you, don't be like me.
Speaker 3:That is a good lesson too, no so?
Speaker 2:All right, All right, folks. So this was the third of five. Two more to go, and then you have a complete set. Collect them all. They come with your happy meal and they bring you happiness. So these are the happy meal gifts that you can just collect them all.
Speaker 3:You've got to catch them all.
Speaker 2:Until then, take care of yourselves and each other. I'm Yogan Sunim.
Speaker 3:I'm Dr Ruben Lambert. If you like what you hear, subscribe and like and make sure you pass it on to someone else who may benefit from our program.
Speaker 2:And if you feel moved to shoot in our direction, a little recording. We've had a number of people initially do a little recording that we play to inspire others to either listen or just simply what your experience of being a supporter of the podcast is. You could tell others to support the podcast financially, to support the podcast by telling others to support the podcast. You know, and these are just sort of very practical things in a way, in a cheesier way, if you will support the podcast by living according to the things that have the potential to transform your lives.
Speaker 3:How can they? If they want to leave a voice message of what they think about the podcast, it would be placed in one of our intros. Is what we've been doing, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:You can just record it on your phone and then text it to me, okay, and that information's on the, that information's on the website, I think, if you just want the thing 908-591-1754. 908-591-1754. And you could just shoot a text message with your pre-recorded thing, or if you're one of our regulars, I think you could even call and leave a message on our mentoring machine, and I think that could be utilized also. A message on our mentoring machine, and I could think that could be utilized also. Just, obviously, text me before you're gonna call, lest I pick up the phone call and ruin that, or say hello and state your intention, and then you can have them just call back.
Speaker 2:So so, yeah, that's splendid. We love those. They're, they're they've been very sweet and and again, they inspire others and it's uh, sometimes just to have a different voice than my own and yours, yes, it's a. It's a nice way to break it up, if you will yep, and any questions too.
Speaker 3:We've turned yes, all of the questions into podcasts.
Speaker 2:So yep, waiting for those. So don't be discouraged from sending in the questions.
Speaker 3:Every question is a good question. Yep, you want to know what came first, the chicken or the egg? Whatever it is that's on your mind, shoot it our way.
Speaker 2:Yep, the preservation of species. Let's look into it. All right, ta-ta Tata.
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