.png)
The World Through Zen Eyes Podcast
What we do?
Once a week we take a look at the going-ons of the world and say something about ‘em.
The goal?
None, really. Just trying to make heads and tails of the great world roar of Ooommmmmm.
Why?
To try ‘n keep a modicum of personal sanity. And stay off both the meds and the cool aid.
The point?
Points are sharp and therefore violent. We just go around, and round….and round.
Disclaimer:
The views, perspectives, and humor of the speakers and guests of this podcast do not necessarily represent the those of any associated organizations, businesses, or groups, social, religious,cultural or otherwise. The entirety of the podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Topics discussed and views expressed do not constitute medical advice. As the saying goes “Opinions are like bellybuttons, everybody’s got one”.
The World Through Zen Eyes Podcast
Ep. 23 - Finding Happiness Through Understanding Suffering: A Zen Perspective
FAN MAIL - Send us a comment or a topic suggestion
What happens when we stop viewing Buddhism's focus on suffering as pessimism and instead see it as the path to profound joy? In this illuminating conversation, Milan Sinim and Dr. Ruben Lambert respond to listener feedback questioning Buddhism's seemingly negative outlook, revealing how understanding suffering ultimately creates the conditions for genuine happiness.
"What is joy if not absence of suffering?" This simple yet profound question anchors a journey through Zen's nuanced approach to human experience. Rather than denying life's difficulties or promoting toxic positivity, Zen Buddhism offers practical wisdom for navigating our challenges with skill and compassion.
The hosts explore how "knowledge is power" takes on new meaning in Buddhist practice. Like preparing thoroughly for a challenging mountain climb, understanding our suffering equips us to face life's obstacles with greater ease. This perspective transforms our relationship with difficulty, allowing us to see how even the muddiest circumstances can give rise to the lotus flower of awakening.
Perhaps most joyful is Zen's revelation about Buddha nature—our inherent capacity for peace that exists beyond the seesaw of happiness and sadness. While conventional happiness depends on external conditions and inevitably passes, true peace remains available at the center of experience, like the still fulcrum of a seesaw while its ends move up and down.
Through memorable metaphors, including surfing life's waves with equanimity and understanding the difference between peace and mere boredom, this episode offers a refreshing counterpoint to common misconceptions about Zen Buddhism. You'll discover how facing suffering directly—rather than avoiding it—unlocks the capacity for the deepest joy imaginable.
Have you experienced moments of peace beyond conventional happiness and sadness? Share your story or suggest topics for future episodes as we continue exploring the world through Zen eyes.
Dr. Ruben Lambert can be found at wisdomspring.com
Ven. MyongAhn Sunim can be found at soshimsa.org
Welcome back to another episode of the World Through Zen Eyes podcast. I'm Milan Sinim here with Dr Ruben Lambert. Yeah, fan mail, all right with Dr Ruben Lambert. Yeah, fan mail, all right. Yes, so last episode for the listeners who didn't listen. Well, naturally you should. That's the first step. But if you didn't, it was on the supposed pessimism-only badge, that Zen Buddhism, that Buddhism in general. Saw the trailer of Buddhism didn't see the movie, that's right. So that was the topic of that, the seeming pessimism.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:And the if I could sort this out. Okay, here we go. So there was an interesting comment, also a nice observation that someone has made and they sent it in as a via fan mail regarding this week's podcast, that being that last week's. I wonder how much of the criticism that buddhism focuses too much on suffering comes from a reluctance to acknowledge one's own suffering. Some people live in their day-to-day lives largely disconnected from their own emotions, so that they don't have to experience the negative ones. Some believe systems also imply that suffering and discontentment are personal failings, whereas Buddhism normalizes its pervasiveness personal failings, whereas Buddhism normalizes its pervasiveness For people who avoid their own negative thoughts and emotions as a form of self-preservation, and maybe especially for people who have been taught a moral imperative to do so. I imagine that Buddhist teachings could feel vaguely threatening at first. So it's a good observation. Yes, it is first, so it's a good observation.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is. Yes, we have a. I think I used the word sober several times in the last episode because it's sort of it's a sober view of reality. And great podcast as usual. How about a discussion about the joys of Buddhism? So, as opposed to the seeming pessimism Now, the word suffering as it comes up so frequently and the amelioration of suffering and I was trying to improve our condition so that we may suffer less In thinking of this as I think of this right now, because, how you know, we do zero prep for this- All natural.
Speaker 1:All natural, that's right, all natural.
Speaker 2:Artisan conversation yes, handcrafted, molded by the heart.
Speaker 1:Yes, in the very moment.
Speaker 2:In the very moment. Can't get more mindful than that.
Speaker 1:In the furnace of existence Not prepared yesterday. No Fresh ingredients ingredients, so as I think about it now. Suffering, that's it right, finished, finished. So the suffering and the oh you know, buddhism is all so much about suffering. Yes, let's say absolutely, you're right. As we said, what is then joy? What is joy if not absence of suffering? So if we acknowledge the sufferings that are available, tend to them, the result is joy. Thank you very much, until next week.
Speaker 2:I mean, that makes perfect sense.
Speaker 1:That's the point of it.
Speaker 2:I see the visualization right. If a person is, let's say, climbing a mountain, we can use that as the metaphor for suffering. You have to climb over rocks, you have to fight against the temperature, the rain, you know potential animals that are there that can harm you, right, and then you're working, working very hard, and then this is your mental training, right? This is, uh, using all the skills that you've learned throughout your lifetime and applying them, and then diligence, working hard, and then you get to the mountaintop. All that stuff that you did has been, right, released, and then now embrace the beautiful sight at the top of the mountain, right, the absence you're now engaged in, the absence of all that hard work that you just went through, and now take in and soak up the beautiful sights and the beautiful view, right, why not?
Speaker 1:you know that saying knowledge is power, knowledge is power. Knowledge is power, it's true, but it has this power and usually power means to subdue somebody else. You know, in this day and age, this phrase knowledge is power could not be more prevalent and more poignant, because Triggering, right, the word power maybe, well, triggering, but also it's if you consider social media and everything else. I was just speaking with someone else the other day and we're talking about the social media and the scrolling and the algorithm and the genius of it. Right, that, let's say, you like cat images and you're scrolling through your social media and the thing knows You've paused on an image of a cat, and so they're like, haha, he likes cats, right, and so they scroll through. It's like well, let's double check that, let's pull, let's pump out another cat image. And there's a cat, and there you are. You pause, right, and then you go confirmed image. And there's a cat, and there you are. You pause, oh right, and then confirmed, confirmed, and so they're like all right, here we go.
Speaker 1:Cat, cat, nonsense, nonsense, nonsense, nonsense, cat, nonsense, nonsense, ad. What kind of ad? Cat, cat product ad, right, cat t-shirt ad. Cat on a hat. Cat on a stick, cat on a whatever right, nonsense, nonsense, nonsense. More cats. And then it's like, all right, well, if cat, and then what is the adjacent topic or things associated with cat and the liking of cats. But then we also have the sellers who've paid for their ads, and so you get cat, cat, cat, boomerang. You have no interest in boomerang, but the boomerang seller paid extra to force themselves into your feed, right.
Speaker 1:And so it is knowledge is power. What is current power? It's not the physical sort of suppression of someone, it's not the physical overcoming of someone, it it's knowledge is power. The more you know, the better you could exploit. And so the knowledge is power is absolutely true. And I say this because knowledge is joy, right. Why do we study so many of the things that we study? Why do we learn so much? Because you were talking about the mountain and let's say, all right, well, the mountain is Katahdin in Maine, right, and we're in New Jersey, and so we have to get to Maine. And so what do we do? Let's go to Maine, and the least information you have, the more difficult the journey is going to be, the more besieged by suffering that journey is going to be. You're gonna get lost, you don't know what to do, you don't know how to prepare, et cetera, et cetera, you could place yourself in great danger.
Speaker 2:Right? What was the other one in New Hampshire, the world's most dangerous small mountain? Forgot that one now mount. Was it in hampshire, or remember, we're gonna go there instead of rogers and we couldn't because that mountain is so interesting.
Speaker 1:Like if you don't do your home. The weather switches, so quickly.
Speaker 2:I've seen videos online where they have almost 200 mile an hour winds at the mountain peak.
Speaker 1:There's that video somebody like getting wine served and it just flies out of the the battle bottleneck horizontally. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So I mean, yeah, you definitely can be placing yourself into great danger, yeah, for not doing your homework or your research.
Speaker 1:So knowledge is joy. The more you know, the more obstacles, the more skillfully you could navigate the obstacles and be prepared, etc. Etc. And so, if you consider the amount of information, the fantastic breadth and span of the Zen teachings, it really takes into account not only the innumerable obstacles we're going to face in our lives, but also the combination of those obstacles to each person. And so, as many as there are people, as many as there are moments and thoughts and ideas and all of this thing, you get the alchemy of constant changing things.
Speaker 1:So, but so the focus, if, if, if there is, if one wants to go with the camp of, uh, buddhism is so pessimistic and focuses on so much suffering, it's the other side of that that provides joy. And so let's say yes, we talk a lot about suffering. Why? Because we don't want it. We try to navigate it, and of course we don't want it. I don't mean, like the denial or not acceptance, of course we've talked about that, but the idea is, the less suffering you can create in your life, the more joy then you have. And so, whether it's avoiding a suffering, whether it's accepting a suffering, whether it's foreseeing a suffering, whether it's forgetting, a suffering, right?
Speaker 1:How many patients you have who come with the suffering of that which has long gone, long, long gone. So they haven't forgotten the suffering, they haven't released that suffering, or they haven't forgotten the suffering, they haven't released that suffering, or they haven't accepted the suffering, and then they project the possibility of same suffering into the future, etc. Etc. So what are the joys of Buddhism? Is the fact that we have in fact pinpointed, identified the problematic elements in existence, and not only just identification of it, the way out of it, the way out of it, the prescription, right, and so it's all joy, it's all about joy, but it goes about joy in a way of very kind of practical way. How do you make your life joyous? Because the fact of reality is that life isn't In and of itself. You know, there's no guarantee, life has made no binding contract with any of us to say, oh, we're going to furnish you with, you know, with all the things you love, and it's not. Reality is rough. Things eat things. Everything that is alive is alive on death.
Speaker 1:I was in meditation class. I think it was the intermediate meditation class class. I think it was the intermediate meditation class. I said there was a question that was asked and in response, as a part of the response I asked when you clean something, any time you clean something, by cleaning one thing you make something else dirty, and on and on and on, and you just pass the dirt from one thing to another thing, to another thing, to another thing. So to clean one thing means to make something else dirty, and that passing of the buck, in a sense that is, there is suffering in life, it's a tending to it. Knowing how to tend to it equals joy, and so the more of the problematic things we can identify, the more joy we have.
Speaker 2:Right, that's a very good point. And I'm wondering the shortcomings that many people have might be due to just their limited insight and their limited foresight. So maybe the thing in which the thing, whatever it is in that person's life, in which they want to clean, they don't understand that there has to be some kind of exchange you have to dirty something in order to clean that right. They don't understand that there has to be some kind of an exchange. Maybe they're not willing to do the work to create that outcome. But also, if you look at the concept of mumulness, right, ignorance, ignorance I almost see that as in those moments they misunderstand. Because if you look at a napkin or a paper towel, right, the paper towel is designed to absorb dust and to be thrown away. And let's say, the vase has a current purpose and function that you want to have in your life, to, let's say, put a flower in it and bring joy to your house, right. But then the part that should be thrown away, or that's garbage or dirty or filthy, they hoard or they give that value. And then the part that should be nurtured and should be given air to and life to, this they misunderstand and they throw away due to their ignorance.
Speaker 2:I see this in many things, like relationships or in jobs and things of that nature. Right, where you want to do better, you want to get a promotion, but then a person doesn't regulate their emotions and they're always angry at work and then they're wondering why they don't get the outcome that they want. Well, you know you're feeding the things that are actually dirty and you should actually get rid of and you're not cleaning the part of your life that will actually give you what it is that you want. So these kinds of misunderstandings and mishaps are just shortcomings of people. I notice that very often. That's a very good, I think, example that I'm gonna use with people in therapy.
Speaker 1:You know there's so many that you make a thing dirty any time you clean something else, that's its own big thing. In the context of this, maybe perhaps wasn't the best place to bring it up, but the other thing that that Zen so frequently talks about, and and again this is one of those. You know I was going to say enlightenment, but actually it is my understanding that the concept of enlightenment per se, Buddha never said enlightenment, that actual word right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this is now academic, you know jumbling things, but anyway, the idea of enlightenment, or the possibility of enlightenment, or the potential of enlightenment this is the other element of Zen that I would call is so joyous, because what it reminds us of continuously is how fantastic at the root of being, how fantastic we are, how fantastic a thing is which is in kind of counter to this idea of suffering, all this suffering. So all this suffering, yes, it's true. What do we do about it? When we see the suffering, when we understand the suffering, we can then create joy. Then the other element is that, on one hand, we say that there's suffering and the suffering is the nature of existence, but then, on the other hand, we say that enlightenment, or the Buddha nature isn't suffering. So it's like all right. Well, and this is the zen kind of cliche, if you will.
Speaker 1:You know, we speak with kind of two mouths almost yeah, our life is full of suffering, right, don't worry, babe, because that's not what life is like. Wait a second. Is it suffering or is it not suffering? Yeah, and so this is this, this is the way that we can organize existence as it is, existence as we interact with it, who we are, as we believe ourselves to be, or as we have been made to believe, who we are and who we are as, in fact, that which we are, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So the more layers we could understand, the more equipped we are to navigate in between those layers.
Speaker 1:I think it was during COVID and it just popped up in one of my sort of memory things. I wonder if I I think I saved it. This was time when we had several people either directly from the Zen Center or associated to the Zen Center via other connections. You know, there was the denial of COVID and it's and it's thing, and then the, you know, the washing of hands and the mask and all of these things were kind of, and so in response to that not directly, but this was my intention I wrote something, and this is what I wrote.
Speaker 2:Going for a treat here.
Speaker 1:Yes, a little poetry, well, it just came up, or ramblings it's ramblings I think yeah, so this is what I wrote.
Speaker 1:A bodhisattva, although possessing transcendent knowledge of all things of this world and the world beyond the veil, out of highest wisdom and compassion, hide their superiority and express humility. A bodhisattva understands both the ultimate as well as the relative realities, is considerate of the minds of others and therefore is not abrasive. A bodhisattva understands the karmic burdens and entanglements of causes and conditions which binds sentient beings, aims to remove the suffering of others as gently as a loving parent. A bodhisattva moves between the world of the superior, ultimate truths and the inferior, relative truths seamlessly, and so their presence is desired by others and their absence is mourned. A bodhisattva with an open heart guides others to cultivate the fields of merit with good, kind and compassionate deeds. A bodhisattva with no dust in their eyes sees the truth and lives not in the illusory but in the ultimate freedom, that of mind, free from greed, anger and ignorance.
Speaker 2:That is very profound and heartwarming and joyful.
Speaker 1:It was very and I wrote it on the account of this sort of abrasiveness, largely that one word was the thing.
Speaker 2:There was a lot of that in that you know, yeah, anyway. When you were talking about alignment, which we danced over that, I want to say more the Buddha nature. I feel like that is the great hope, also of Buddhism.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it's the good news. It's the good news, it's the joyous news.
Speaker 2:Because sometimes we feel you know and people say what is human nature Right? And I think if you look at the Bodhisattva mind, looking at it from the enlightened perspective, you said they understand the entanglements that humans have with their karma. So this is a real thing that they're struggling with. You're not going to come in and pose and say look at me, how high and mighty I am, look at what I am doing here right now and you're down there in the muck like a piece of garbage or an idiot. There's no human rights there, right? The bodhisattva, I think, looks down and says I was there too. I can climb out of there and you can be where I am also, and keeping that compassion in mind is how you can get into the mud.
Speaker 1:Get into the mud and help them out get into the mud.
Speaker 1:Well, get into the mud, yeah, and help them out. I think the thing is bodhisattva and and of course you're speaking in pumpkin terms, but bodhisattva doesn't look at your, there, me, here we are, it looks as we are there's a there's a unity of certain elements. Again, this is this kind of fantastic Zen thing, because, on one hand, there's a unifying element, which is we know what we know, each individual person, so each individual person, on one hand, is unique and separate from another because of what they know. So a person knows more about farming, another person knows less about farming More about electricity or plumbing.
Speaker 1:So we're unique and separate in the knowing, as we are also, in a sense, unique and separate in our sufferings, but at the very same time, we are not separate Because the nature and the possibility of a human being to suffer, each person is capable of the same exact suffering as the other person is capable. But despite all the combinations and all the vast differences and circumstances, and all of that, the fact that any human being is capable of experiencing anything on the spectrum of existence, because they are by nature human, and so is the case with the other who is a human.
Speaker 1:And so this is this again, if we kind of circle back to the joys of Zen, it is that, Because Zen on one hand says look at this suffering, look at that suffering, this is suffering, that's suffering, and this is that and that is that, and after we've listed all of those things, we say but but that's not really we say then yom Yom.
Speaker 1:Remember, yeah, remember. Those are the things, tend to those things, and what we end up doing is excavating ourselves from underneath this great avalanche of so-called suffering to find that we are, without suffering, the Buddha nature, yeah that unfurls in the lotus flower.
Speaker 1:Yes, that rises out of the mud yeah, and and this is where we get the goofball exclamations of Zen masters you know who? Ha ha, ha ha. They laugh Of all the amount of work and suheng they've put in. And finally there's a great kind of they throw their head back and say, ha ha ha, this is all for the birds. And then they make it even more worse. The situation in a sense quote unquote, because they say look, I blinked, right for those of you, so it's as easy as blinking.
Speaker 1:It's as easy as touching your nose you know, and this is the so, on one hand, consider the great, vast mountainous avalanche of suffering under which we are buried and then that, as easy as it is to blink your eyes, it's also that easy to unburden yourself from that avalanche. It's just immediate disappearance of all the suffering, like a lightning flash.
Speaker 2:I think that alone brings you joy in those hard moments, it is joy. Because, even if you're suffering, even if times are not good right now, just knowing that within your reach it is yours, your nature is free of all of those things. That is profoundly joyful.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, we have at the same time this great, you know, deep and profound amount of suffering in our lives and, as the commentator who wrote the little write-up said, we could live in denial of it and we could live kind of disconnected and some ideology where it says, oh, if you're suffering, there's some kind of failings of you, If you have an emotional, you know, if you have a sad emotional experience or what have you. So we are absolutely experiencing this great, deep, profound suffering. But the joy is, the stark reality beneath it all is that we're not. And this is really the goal and the main point of Zen Happiness.
Speaker 1:And of course, now we have to define some terms because happiness if we were to look at the kind of seesaw comparison of happiness and sadness, as I frequently call them, the sadness is fizzy and so is happiness. So I say, sadness fizzes downward, happiness fizzes upward, but they are by nature different and simultaneously the same. They're different because sadness is sadness and happiness is happiness. That's the difference. But they're not different in the fact that they both are fizzy, that there's an activity, that they also are codependent of one another. So there's a sameness in the fact that they're codependent and changeable and there's a difference, that one is suffering and the other is happiness.
Speaker 1:Now I don't know if I'm sinking too far into the philosophical end of the spectrum here, but this idea of same and different and the understanding of which elements are in fact the unifying, which elements are the separating elements. If we could get that together and sort it out, we can then navigate life. The fundamental point of Buddhism is, like I said, kind of dismantling or inspecting. Maybe the word happiness it's actually something more higher than happiness. Happiness again exists within the duality of suffering or unhappiness. It's a hostage situation.
Speaker 1:Are you happy? No, oh, that means you're unhappy. Are you unhappy? Yes, oh, that means that you don't have the happiness, and so you either have one or the other, and that's dualism, and that's dualism, and it's dualism with which we exist and have to understand that. It's the nature of life, yada, yada. All of this Right you?
Speaker 2:cycle through both emotions Right, and both are subject to the same laws and principles that govern the negative emotion if you want to label it negative, which that's another thing, and the positive one, which is both of them, are impermanent too, so they both will have a beginning, duration and an end, and that's also some of the issues, and continue down the path you're going, but that's also some of the issues that human beings have is, when they latch onto happiness, they expect it to last forever To exist outside of the duality of it being the other side of suffering.
Speaker 1:Yep. And so, to be perfectly honest, within Zen, we want to go further, beyond that which we label as happiness. We want peace, koyo, koyo, coil, coil. And this is the this is. We have to really think about it for a moment, because when you think of peace right, wrongly so, but frequently, what a person then conjures up in their own mind is, well, peace is a sort of nothingness. If there's no happiness and there's no suffering, peace is boredom. And on the surface, this is what we do continuously. We want to interrupt the state of peace or boredom by pursuing happinesses of various kinds, of various kinds, and you get to a point where a masochist and a sadist, everybody's pursuing happiness, happiness in pain, happiness in inflicting pain, happiness in receiving pain. So we are all looking for happiness, looking for happiness in, perhaps, the places that are not going to provide sustainable happiness, or that the happiness has a cost.
Speaker 2:There's an old song looking for love in all the wrong places.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So this idea of pursuing something we want to have a happy life. This is an easy kind of simple way of looking at it. Yes, we want to have a happy life. This is an easy kind of simple way of looking at it. Yes, we want a happy life. If you don't understand what suffering is, you're you're. You won't know what happiness is. So that's the other joy.
Speaker 1:So when we just the idea that the fixation on suffering as the main interest within Zen is really short-sighted, right, because that's the thing we are after happiness, and we're greedy, and so we're after more than happiness, and the thing is we can exist in this very world. So again, the idea also, or another point in this, is that we don't necessarily want to suffer, but we will suffer, and understanding that we want to have happiness, but we also understand that happiness is a temporary state of existence. And so, like the seesaw thing, on one side you have happiness, on the other side you have sadness, and they're kind of just up and down, up and down, up and down, up and down, and there's a central point that's called the fork room, and down, up and down, up and down, and there's a central point, it's called the fork room. Fork room, right, that point is not moving, it's the ends of the thing are moving, so the happiness goes up and down and the sadness goes up and down and suffering goes up and down. So there's a lot of movement, but there's a place of the fork room on which all of this hinges, in a sense right, and we can exist as we must. There's no other way.
Speaker 1:And this is not a zen, is not about denial of experience of life, and so we exist and we are not discouraged from openness to experience of suffering in life. We're going to have suffering in life. There's no denying of it. There's no, and we're encouraged not to live in denial of it. But we are also then encouraged to pursue happiness, but not at the cost of something you know, so that, like the exchanges are very, when we really think about it, it's a. We can live and experience joys and we can live and experience sufferings. This is the nature of life. What then really is suffering? It's what then really is suffering. It's not the experience of suffering that's suffering.
Speaker 1:Suffering is when we suffering and deny the suffering that we're suffering, or we're suffering and and tell ourselves story or fight against it and suffer the suffering of suffering and, on the other hand, when we have happiness, knowing that the happiness and this is not knowing, as in like glooming kind of cloud that looms over the happiness, to say, oh, this is going to be over any minute. Because that's suffering, that's your happiness being taken away by the anticipation of it ending. So that's anxiety. It's's gonna go away any moment, right?
Speaker 2:that's anxiety, right, so it didn't go, even go away yet, but you just transform that moment into suffering, because you could have waited a little bit longer that's what, before you do it you know it comes in and robs and steals it literally, is a thief of your happiness yeah, that's exactly the mechanism of anxiety.
Speaker 2:I imagined almost like what you were talking about right now, like a surfer, right? So you, you're there on the ocean on your surfboard waiting. Then the wave arises, right, the surfer gets elated and sees what he wants, gets on the wave and enjoys it. But that surfer understands and knows that he can ride that wave. And you ride it joyfully, you do a handstand, you're, you know, take posing for pictures. You're enjoying, you're riding that wave. But then the wave will come to an end and crash. The surfer then doesn't. At the moment that the wave goes away, you don't see a surfer say, oh man, no more waves, I'm getting out of here, break his surfboard, hopefully afterwards.
Speaker 1:Hopefully that doesn't happen.
Speaker 2:You need to take up some zen meditation practice. But then they they reflect on that realize they enjoyed it and they sit on their on their surfboard and they wait for the next wave. But there is no such thing as an infinite wave that they can ride on no, and the one thing of that is suffering.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so in Zen we are to experience life and, like we've said it before, we're not intended to arrive at some sort of emotionally castrated, blasé kind of state of being where nothing fades you and nothing whatever you experience joy you truly experience but you truly experience both sides versus constantly running away from one and running towards the other. Yeah, I've seen Zen masters cry.
Speaker 2:Yeah tears come to my eyes.
Speaker 1:Over a loss of another Zen master who's passed into nirvana. This is the thing of it, right? Normal people go and cry at a funeral largely and frequently for their own loss. They mourn their own loss. And Yuk Cho Henung, in the Tan Gyeong Sutra, yuk Cho Henung says that when he announces he's going to enter, he's going to leave the world, and some disciples are crying. He says why are you crying? You're crying, I'm not crying. You're crying because you don't know where I'm going.
Speaker 1:I'm not crying because I know where I'm going and he says the only one that's not crying is so-and-so, and that so-and-so disciple one that's not crying is so and so and that's so and so disciple. That's why I ask the rest of you, what have you been doing up here on?
Speaker 2:this mountain this whole time, you know, have you not been heeding the warning and or the teachings of the buddha? Well, have you not. Will happen, right, yeah, and have you not?
Speaker 1:permanent? And have you not developed the far-seeing eye? And so that's the thing. But, like I said, I have seen Zen masters cry, who you know. They had another Zen master who passed. They shed a tear.
Speaker 1:I mean, they're not wailing, you know, they're not drowning in the experience of their suffering or the sadness or whatever, but they feel sadness. They feel sadness despite the fact that they know exactly where that other master has gone. So there's no unknown crying here. That experience, that sadness, if you you will, is a rightful sadness and it's a sadness for, not for, that person who has gone, because they know, like I said, they know they could see where that particular person's karma it's a, rather than where they gone. They could go visit them over there anytime they want, inside the samme. But they're crying, and rightly so. Why? Because there are so many chungseng here in this world who would have benefited from the teachings of said master. But that master's time has come. So the tears shed are for those who cannot drink of the from the waters of wisdom that flow from that mountain, from that, from that master, but they're not shedding tears for the stupid ideas right.
Speaker 1:You know the unnecessary right they're selfish, that that kind of thing. You know, so it is. It is the whole experience, the whole gamut of of human experience is available to us. Joy is like a low-grade fulfillment, and then we have happiness, maybe, and then we have maybe, some elation. And we have to be careful, because there are forks in the road over there, because happiness we know from, from idema, um, and the internal organs and and the emotions that are, um, prevalent in certain people, that happiness can become mania. Right so, but we're talking, so there's a kind of layers of. So there's the happiness, and then we could say, you know, some bliss perhaps, and then there's something else, and so eventually, at the end of this line of of pursuit, what we get is peace and peace.
Speaker 1:For for a person who has not experienced perhaps not the peace, but just calmness, some state of calmness and tranquility and kind of some level of peace, we could say, right, the idea of peace as being pleasant experience maybe escapes them, because they're accustomed to the loudness of happiness and the loudness of sadness and the loudest of emotions. And sometimes, when there isn't any, Sometimes when there isn't any, the mind that is not able to. And this is not necessarily some conscious, intentional scheming on the part of the person. It's like oh, if I don't feel anything, I'm going to cut myself, and then I'll feel something. So if I can't find happiness, I'm going to something, stub my toe because something and anything is better than nothing. But peace is not nothing. And for those people who have in fact experienced some quietude, it's.
Speaker 2:I don't know words. The words are unbinding, yeah it is.
Speaker 1:we could say it is happiness. Look for the sake of, for the sake of, I think I guess you know peace is happiness. It's got a different quality, like I said then, than happiness as the fizzy thing, because again, with the idea of happiness we get a lot of connotation that it means doing something, and this is where kids overstimulate it. The word boredom is the new curse word. I'm bored. That means nothing. Loud enough is going on to catch the attention of the conscious mind to dub the thing as activity, and so you think if you're sitting quietly that's inactivity, but that's absolutely an activity. It has its own thing. In fact, I think I had mentioned boredom once and somebody said oh, that should be a topic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not a bad idea.
Speaker 1:Not a bad idea. I guess the topic will be to see how much we could bore the people listening.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Considering and looking deeply and profoundly into the suffering element of life. We are in fact focusing and pursuing the happiness of life. So how do you prefer to look at it? The means of it or the outcome of it? And so what is your internal orientation? Then perhaps we could say the Ilche Yusimjo. If you hone in on words such as suffering and pain and discomfort and discontentment and the various tukka or konan, the sufferings then you could say, oh, it's all about suffering. If you have a little bit more thoughtful look at it and deeper experience with it, then you say, well, it's all about happiness. And then if you go, still in there, you go, there's something else higher, there's a third. Yeah, I guess that'll suffice. Sure, Thank you very much for joining us. As always, Pleasure having you. You are absolutely welcome, by the way, to record those of you who haven't and submit your little few-second kind of testimonial thing.
Speaker 1:As you know we've been adding that to the podcast and if you haven't done so, it's lovely, do so. If you have done one or two and you want to do another one with some different point you want to make, by all means, please. It just enhances the listener experience, I believe. And again, if there is a topic, um, that you're interested in, or or perhaps a more thorough or more detailed exploration of something not that all things can be addressed, not at all things can be in detail explained, because when we get to detail and nuance, you know it's it's, it's the strangest thing. You can't. If you paint with such broad strokes, there's no conversation, right?
Speaker 2:If you add so much nuance there's no conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, middle path, middle path. So until next time, take care of yourselves and each other. I'm Myung Han Sunim, from my heart to yours.
Speaker 2:if you like what you hear, well, pass it on to someone else so they can also learn and benefit from our podcast. I'm Dr Ruben Lambert. Oh my God.
%20(2).png)
.png)