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The World Through Zen Eyes Podcast
What we do?
Once a week we take a look at the going-ons of the world and say something about ‘em.
The goal?
None, really. Just trying to make heads and tails of the great world roar of Ooommmmmm.
Why?
To try ‘n keep a modicum of personal sanity. And stay off both the meds and the cool aid.
The point?
Points are sharp and therefore violent. We just go around, and round….and round.
Disclaimer:
The views, perspectives, and humor of the speakers and guests of this podcast do not necessarily represent the those of any associated organizations, businesses, or groups, social, religious,cultural or otherwise. The entirety of the podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Topics discussed and views expressed do not constitute medical advice. As the saying goes “Opinions are like bellybuttons, everybody’s got one”.
The World Through Zen Eyes Podcast
Ep. 19 - The Art of Feeling: Zen Perspectives on Numbness and Awareness
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What happens when we numb ourselves to life's subtle symphony, constantly seeking louder experiences? This question forms the heart of our exploration into numbness—a concept that emerged from a casual conversation after Sunday service but quickly revealed itself as fundamental to understanding human suffering and awakening.
Numbness takes many forms in our lives. Sometimes we use substances to escape pain, moving from suffering toward a perceived "normal" state. Other times, we seek stimulation to elevate ourselves from boredom, chasing dopamine hits through increasingly intense experiences. Both paths lead away from genuine presence. As we discuss in this episode, self-harm can serve similar purposes—either escaping overwhelming emotions or creating physical sensation when emotionally numb. These represent the extremes that Zen philosophy warns against.
Our modern world has systematically designed ways to keep us from sitting with our thoughts. Look around at people standing in line, most plugged into devices, consuming content, avoiding stillness. Algorithms exploit our tendency to normalize experiences, requiring ever-increasing stimulation to maintain interest. This creates what we call "the algorithm of greed"—a progressive desensitization that pulls us further from subtle awareness and deeper into artificial stimulation.
Contrary to misconceptions, Zen doesn't encourage emotional detachment. Rather, it invites us through what initially feels like boredom to discover the richness beneath. Picture passing through a pinhole focus that strips away callouses, leaving us raw but wise—able to feel deeply while maintaining the ability to function without drowning in emotion. Like trained lifeguards jumping into suffering's ocean, we can be fully immersed in experience while possessing the skills to navigate safely.
Join us as we explore how numbness represents the opposite of wakefulness and how Zen offers a path toward complete participation in life—an attunement to reality as it is, not as we wish it to be. By breaking free from our addiction to stimulation, we might just discover that the subtle experiences we've been avoiding hold the key to awakening.
Have you found value in these discussions? Consider supporting our work by visiting Soshimsa.org/the-world-through-zen-eyes-podcast to make a donation that helps offset our production costs.
Dr. Ruben Lambert can be found at wisdomspring.com
Ven. MyongAhn Sunim can be found at soshimsa.org
Hi, my name is Lauren and I'd like to take a minute to say how much I love the World Through Zen Eyes podcast. I think the combination of perspectives from modern psychology and Zen Buddhism is a really brilliant one, and I think it combination of perspectives from modern psychology and Zen Buddhism is a really brilliant one, and I think it ultimately offers something for everyone, whether you're new to Zen or an experienced practitioner or neither of those things and you're just someone who's looking for new ways to think about something you've been wondering about or a thing you've been struggling with. A lot of the topics are based on suggestions from listeners about those things, about the daily chaos of everyday life that we all experience, so I think it's a great service and I hope it's able to stick around for a long time. If you're a listener who's gained something meaningful from the podcast, please consider making a donation to help offset the weekly production costs. You can do so by going to the podcast section of Soshimsaorg or go there directly at Soshimsaorg. Slash the World Through Zen Eyes podcast.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to another podcast, or another episode of the podcast, the World Through Zen Eyes. I am Yonan Sunim here with Dr Ruben Lambert and this is going to be interesting. The topic came up. Well, the topic sort of deformed and not completely done actually is what this is. And Sunday, after the Sunday service, I popped in my head into the lunchroom amidst of the conversation that I know nothing of the beginning of. I was just mid-entry and a set of eyes shot at my direction and said maybe that's a good podcast topic. I said what is? And they said numbness. And before I could inquire exactly of what was being talked about, what they meant by the thing, I was wafted away to other responsibilities and it's never been fully formed as a question or a topic. So a one word title numbness, and yeah, so that's, that's where we're at and we'll kind of go with that. Um, I think I mean, were you there for some part of this?
Speaker 3:yes, I was there for some part of that discussion.
Speaker 3:So give us the start the onset was a discussion that everyone's having, uh, regarding like addictions. Primarily, it was being discussed with uh, one of our members who has stopped smoking cigarettes and was, uh, chewing nicotine gum, and in addition to that, he was talking about some of the alcohol use and he was just connecting all the reasons behind why, when he was at his worst, he would use alcohol or rely on cigarettes to get through difficult times, and part of the things that were being highlighted was the numbness that drugs and alcohol can create right when you're dealing with some kind of pain.
Speaker 3:It can numb you from the pain right.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, so numbness as a sort of avoidance, and dealing in terms of pain, in terms of in pain and suffering, yeah, of whichever way. And okay, so right, because there is the. On one hand, we have the use of substance as a sort of I want to feel good type of thing, right, and, and that's if, if the norm is normal, then the substance use means I above average. So it's, if it's the average mode of operation, I want to feel something above average and so I want to feel good, high, whatever and um. And then we have this particular sort of way of using, or the reasoning for use, which is I'm suffering and so I want to go from, essentially we could say the other direction, so from some elevated state, in this case discomfort or pain or suffering of some sort, to an average, and so it's either like, not, either these aren't the only options, but you know I'm too average, so I want to feel something more. So there it is. Or I'm feeling too much and so I want to feel less and kind of return to the average. I just want to be sort of normal, quote-unquote.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, it is it, we have that, and also we see this in in self mutilation, right it's. It's sometimes the I feel nothing. Some I am numb, and you know, if I cut, then I feel something, and feeling something is better than feeling nothing. And then sometimes in the other way around, I'm feeling too much, so too many things going on. So let's say, if I cut myself, then I'm feeling the one thing. It's sort of all of that ephemeral thing collapses onto a very specific. At least I know what it is that I'm feeling, I know why I'm feeling it, right, mm-hmm it's almost like to also hook to mind to a point I thought of.
Speaker 3:Like you know, when unsung him, our teacher does like acupuncture right and the needle gets stuck, he uses the technique of pinching over here and then it gets loose over there. Movement of the mind Sometimes people who are going through overwhelming intense emotional pain and they have no idea how to manage it or get rid of it, they can cut, because then the mind will shift away from this grave, intense pain to the physical pain and just hunker down on that, releasing, or at least temporarily not really releasing, I can't say releasing temporarily forget Distracting From the intense emotional pain. So it brings to them this idea of a temporary alleviation this idea of a temporary alleviation.
Speaker 2:So you know, I think to sort of place it somewhere within purugyo satsang, within the Buddhist philosophy. It's extremes, sort of dealing with extremes.
Speaker 3:Well, think about it, they're bouncing. You're going from cutting physical pain to emotional pain and then they bounce back and forth those two spots right.
Speaker 2:So there really is no real, or running away from pain towards some normalcy, or running away from normalcy towards a feeling of something and sometimes anything. So, yeah, it is bouncing between the extremes and this is kind of where the I guess we could say the starting point within the Zen philosophy. We could kind of just anchor it there and, in terms of extremes, we have that same thing. You know, the Zen philosophy warns us of extremes in whatever, whichever direction, and I think frequently I've talked about the extremes of hate and love in their extreme expressions. But this is a thing for us human beings. This is a thing for us human beings living in this world. This is a thing for us human beings living in this world. We, like some people at times, whatever. Disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer.
Speaker 2:We take a very hot dish on one end and a very cold on the other hand, our perception of the full expression of flavors really is more middle path. So when the food is too hot, you can't taste the whole bouquet of flavors. When the food is too cold, you can't taste the whole bouquet of flavors. When the food is too cold, you can't taste that either. You know, which is why ice cream is so extremely sweet? Because the sweetness of it gets lost in in the, in the kind of temperature of it and so we, we, I bring.
Speaker 2:I say this to say that we are seeking some kind of a happening, some kind of going on, on the basis of the fact that it's the pursuit of the loud and that the subtle kind of escapes us, right. So there's a subtle tea, a sort of umami of life, if you will. But it's also like. Take fruit, for example right, we enjoy a fruit, and this isn't to say everybody, right, but cold, right. Or salad, for example, we want an refrigerator, nice and crispiness, and that, and it sort of deviates from the natural state. The flavor of cabbage, say, it's in sort of natural surroundings, right, it's in sort of natural surroundings, right, but when we either overheat it or sort of refrigerate it, there's a loss of something it's almost like the fire, like you were saying the fire the hot dish will burn your tongue.
Speaker 2:you can't taste right and the cold one will numb. Freeze will numb or give your brain freeze and then you can't taste again, right?
Speaker 3:so, and I was also thinking, I was like the, you know you're talking about zen and things like that, the balance of the elements, right to have hot and cold, like. What is it that you're trying to do, right, if you want to make? You were telling me yesterday how every, everything has an element of the other one. It's just what are the proportions that you're trying?
Speaker 3:to get right. If you're making fire, there's an element of moisture there, but if you have too much moisture, then the fire is put out right and vice versa. You know you can have heat. There's actually an ice burn that occurs if you take ice and you rub it on your skin. It actually gets to the point where the friction burns your skin right.
Speaker 3:So, there are elements of each factor but depending on what your outcome, the ingredient proportions are different. But ultimately, I think when things are out of, we're getting to the same point that we always kind of get to make is what is the goal?
Speaker 2:when things are out of balance, then, whether it's an emotion, or whether it's eating or an activity, then your life is out of whack, right because we have this, we have this idea of, of this fear perhaps that in subtlety, um, there's boredom there, right, because in this or in the average normal thing, there's nothing special about it. And that has to do with our kind of deafness to it and our desensitization to it. So, the way of attunement really is frequently a Zen thing of attunement really is frequently a Zen thing.
Speaker 2:Right, we're deaf to lives that, beneath that which seems to be kind of average, the amount of going on, the amount of happening, the amount of going on, the amount of happening, the amount of activity, action, one action in the stillness, seeming stillness, of things, all of that is going on. Not that long ago, we were doing one of the healing arts classes and we focused on balancing. So a lot of exercise, standing on one leg and this and that and challenging the balance, and we don't think about it, but, as we walk normally, the amount of calculation that your toes do, step to step, calculation, adjustment, balancing, all of this thing, I mean the soul of the foot, it's really busy with going on. It's the opposite of boredom right, it's the opposite of boredom.
Speaker 1:We're just mindless.
Speaker 3:We don't even focus and pay attention to that. But there's a whole universe going on and there's a whole coffin and a whole orchestra working there Intriguing. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's not boredom, it's intriguing thing, but it's hidden in the sort of low volume or low nuanced thing and this is a problem I see with a lot of people.
Speaker 3:Teenagers, in particular Kids, get to a certain stage where they just say I'm bored. I'm bored, and some people too, some adults also, either in relationships or their jobs.
Speaker 2:Well, do you recall? The details of that self-electrocution study that they did oh the milligram study self-electrocution study that they did.
Speaker 3:Oh, the milligram study.
Speaker 2:No, no, there was a group of people that they were given a chair and a table and a button and I don't recall the details of it, but I think you were told to sit there for like 10 minutes and nothing to do. You can't read no phone, no, nothing. You just get in a room and you sit there. You can't read no phone, no, nothing. You just get in a room and you sit there and the only form of stimulation was that you hit a button and it electrocutes you. Obviously nothing life-threatening, I'm supposing, and I don't remember what exactly the number was and this was kind of an anomaly. But there was a fellow who electrocs or something to the tune of like 300 times.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I could see that you know and and, but there's to say, many people have and it was as of like nothing, anything but just sitting here. Boredom, but it's. But is it boredom? Is the question right? Is it boredom? Or is it just me and my demons having a chit-chat? Just drive me nuts facing, because that's the thing, when nothing goes on, we have to face something. Then faces the things that dredge up sort of all on its own accord, that habituated kind of hauntings of our, of our goals, that come out of the baseboard of our aryashic consciousness, the storehouse consciousness, and so anything, anything but this all ties into the numbness piece. Right, it is numbness.
Speaker 3:As an individual or as a collective society, I feel as though we've designed society to do anything but be left alone with our thoughts and feelings. Oh yeah, out of this I could say collective fear, like anything you know AirPods, iphone All you got to do is look at people standing on a line, right. But you can also think about people who have difficulty sleeping. Why, in particular, is sleep difficult? Because you have to unplug right All of the distractions that you tune into throughout the day that keep you anchored to something externally, whether it's you're listening to something, you're seeing something, you're having a conversation, you're feeling something, you're bombarding your taste buds. When all that ceases, like you're saying what gets dredged up.
Speaker 2:And my goodness, and it doesn't even have to be Some people numb themselves when they take a look, they run.
Speaker 2:That's why pursuit of stimulation or overstimulation, is a form of sort of numbness, right, it's the numbing of the things that matter frequently, right, the voice that matters, the voice that is where the transformative element is. So it's a distraction, but the distraction pulls away from that and so we could say numbness to it, to some experience of life, um, you know, it's frequently thought to be simply in regards to an unpleasant something, the traumas, the, the suffering, the very, but those, those are loud, those are loud, those are loud. It doesn't have to be loud, it's just simply. And you know, there's a, there's a sort of systematic disin, this insetization. That is that because human beings have the tendency to normalize, right, and we have the tendency to normalize as a self-preservation mechanism, let's say, you are forced to go someplace or move somewhere or whatever, and you arrive at a new place, unlike the place that you're accustomed to, and although there are people who, in their minds, dwell and quote-unquote, I miss my old, whatever house, the nostalgia country place something, yeah, but what?
Speaker 2:what we get, in a sense, is that this normalization is a self-preservation mechanism, because we have to. We have to normalize the shock of the new so that we could operate with it, so so that we could operate with it.
Speaker 2:So, so that we're not kind of thrown by it, it's sort of okay, this is where I am, this is now normally. You know, I, I wasn't on, I was, you know, living in Antarctica and I'm living in the Sahara, you know, and if you just be moaning continuously, then you can adapt. So the adaptability, in a sense, is close to normalization of your situation, which makes you be able to operate. So I think it's ingrained in our sort of physiology. Having said that, this adaptive tendency that we have is, I think, very much exploited in consumerism, like you were saying. Very much exploited in consumerism, like you were saying it is. You know, it's almost devious. The incremental increase, it's like I call the algorithm of greed, but there's this incremental increase in whatever. Whatever, the baseline is right. So it's the increase of time, increase of stimuli, increase of the, the loudness, the intensity, whatever, right, um, environmentally speaking, what have you so like? Video games and the algorithm of video games. How are you drawn into it?
Speaker 2:right the, the social media, whatever, whatever it is a movie, the gore, pornography has the same element. Right it's.
Speaker 2:It's increasingly pulling towards some direction you know, and and it's, uh, it's an exploitation of, in a sense, the the on hand, the fear of normalization. When the mind normalizes something, it then becomes sort of free to gravitate to something else. Now, if you're a corporation or if you have a product that you're trying to push, you can't have people normalized to it. You know, I mean apple. Uh, we're gonna get sued by apple now, but the apple um universe does this perfectly, right, it's, it's these incremental things.
Speaker 2:Oh, the new phone has x, y and z, and then, just, you know, just so, it's this, it's exploitation of the chemistry, and and so, from the zen perspective, this we would call the yoki, this world of greed and and constant desire, and and, when not controlled, gets out of hand. But it is the way it is, the way things are, and so they, it's exploited then, because, essentially, right, it's, it's a dopamine addiction, right and so, like you play a video game and and there's struggle, and that struggle then becomes so you've struggled sufficiently enough. Here's a single drop of dopamine like it's this, it's this ivy dopamine turned to faucet dopamine. You know it's, it's, it's this breadcrumbs that that pull you further and further and further in the direction that whoever's exploiting this um wants you to go in a sense, and you know I'm not like some conspiracy theorists, but that's essentially what the algorithms are right. They, they learn what you like and they give you what you like. But they don't just give you what you like.
Speaker 2:You have to scroll for five minutes before you get that one drop of your cat picture you know, that, that you're so fancy and then you scroll through whatever else advertisement, whatever other things and then there's another cat picture you know that you're so fancy and then you scroll through whatever else advertisement, whatever other things and then there's another cat picture that you enjoy. So video games are the same thing. You pass a level. What's a level, you know? So it's this increasing kind of leading carrot to a donkey type of thing that we are to pursue a thing. What we're pursuing and this is the fundamental, I think, misunderstanding we're not pursuing a thing. The thing is symbolic for a dopamine release.
Speaker 2:So whatever your poison quote-unquote is whether it's a video game or a sport, watching a sport, whatever we're pursuing chemistry. So the addiction. In that sense we are fundamentally an addicted species that is addicted to the pursuit of brain chemistry. But we seek it outside and, when properly exploited and organized, what you get is well, you know. I mean, look at this new gadget, it's upgraded. What's upgraded? Oh, now it's sleek. What is that? What does that word mean? That it's sleek, you know.
Speaker 3:And they just do a shift. Right, it's always expansions and contractions, right. They go big and then people are like wow, mine is small, they have that, what is it? Iphone plus or whatever pro?
Speaker 1:or they went big and then they're like now they're going to sleep like you're saying they're like well, wait, mine is big.
Speaker 3:Now we got to go slick and I think I think you bring up a very interesting point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because there is, like it's a generational thing also right, so that there is a movement in the kind of a rising counter um response to that typical bigger, stronger, more power. You know, bigger, bigger, bigger, better, better, better, faster, faster. All of that pursuit of that. There's almost like a counter resistance, and so minimalism has, has made its way kind of around back you know, that's a, that's a fancy thing.
Speaker 2:Minimalism, you know, and um, the dumb phones are a thing coming out, or have been coming out, the, the, you know, the dumb watches. Everything was, you know, started dumb, quote-unquote, and then going to smart and smart, smart. Now ai is going crazy and then you know, and, and, but there's a sort of counter-resistance. People, and it's a generational people, certain generations are the, which is the newer generations, interestingly, so are kind of. There's a counter movement and right.
Speaker 3:I've heard response talk about teachers, talk about going back to paper and pencil as a counter to the AI and the computer. Yeah, the reliance on technology doing the thinking for you and that they did.
Speaker 2:They did a study I think mit did it, yeah uh of people who use chat, gpt and ai to write their, their essays and whatever, and and there's a significant decrease in brain function yeah, I mean you know how you don't.
Speaker 3:I mean congratulations, but you don't need that to know.
Speaker 3:Right, you could just you could look at I talked about this in a podcast right, when something is created, it's a benefit, but then what is the loss or the cost, like I've spoken about, when cell phones came out? Right, and then? How many phone numbers does anyone in the audience really remember today? There's probably people that remember a ton of way back when, before cell phones right, your childhood telephone number, your best phone's telephone number, because you actually had to recall and use it time and time again when you had to get to the pay phone. Yeah, right, you had to recall to use it. But then, when the cell phones came out, all the new phone numbers that you learned you didn't practice. You know retrieval, putting, encoding and retrieval, encoding and retrieval time and time again. No, so you don't know it. Right, because you became reliant. Same thing If you're having this technology, do the thinking when it comes to writing. You're going to see over time people not being here.
Speaker 3:You give them paper and pencil on the spot they're going to be drawing a blank Right.
Speaker 2:But what's the other element of it is that it's sort of murderous to innovation and imagination, that what it's doing, in a sense it's creating a singular collective. Because that's what AI right. It peruses the information and it kind of algorithmically arrives at what would be the sort of medium or medial or whatever the term is, the kind of average they look at trends.
Speaker 3:They're analyzing constantly trans people that want to go viral on social media. It's just trend analysis yeah, and so what?
Speaker 2:you get back to the trend. There's no uniqueness, so it it saps the uniqueness of the, of the thought of that person. But but I mean not to sound like an old man bemoaning some good old days. Progress is not only needed, but it's sort of natural.
Speaker 3:It's evolution, right? Well, you know, we didn't have to. Let's go back to caveman times. We spent a lot of our time and we dedicated it to figuring out, you know, chopping wood, how we're going to make fire, to have light and to have heat, and then hunting. And you know, as time, as we progressed and those things were like instantaneously taken care, taken care of for us, then, well, other things develop, technology, and so forth and so forth. So, yeah, there's a loss, but then if there's a, I guess a healthy way to look at it is if that then frees up. You know, it's like a computer, right, all your space is taken up. But if you free up that space, what do you do with that freed space? If you then take that freed space to to break barriers and expand your consciousness, expand your thinking and break the mold?
Speaker 2:which is a lot of wishful thinking. Well, because COVID and the lockdown of COVID.
Speaker 3:A lot of people didn't fall into the category that I'm describing right now, but hey, I'm projecting that out into the universe to see if people can catch on to that shooting star.
Speaker 2:Right, because you know, usually we get to sort of complain and be moaning of lack of time. And then during COVID, you, you know, everyone, just had time. The wish was, was granted, but you know how was the time utilized and what was it? Was it replaced? You know? So we, we make a lot, I think.
Speaker 3:I think the memes of the door you know. Before covet I could walk to the door. Postcovid, people got stuck at the door Because we sat around with Uber Eats and video games and that's it. But yeah, the wishful thinking was that you only had time Did you read Did you write a book? Did you do meditation? Sometimes we say that in our heads, but then, when reality actually hits, we don't take advantage of those moments.
Speaker 2:Right, because they're excuses. Fundamentally speaking they're excuses, yeah, to be honest. And dishonesty is numbness, right. Right, it's avoiding of a reality. That is numbness. It's avoiding of a reality that is numbness.
Speaker 2:And you know, we, the Zen principles, really we talked about emotions and sometimes it seems like Zen suggests that we are to be sort of emotion castrated, as I've put it, I think, and the idea of you know that absence. So it almost suggests, if you don't pay attention, if you just kind of haphazardly grasp at it, it almost would. One could say, wrongly so, but one could say that Zen invites or suggests some kind of an omnis it mustn't go into the extremes and this and that, and so then you're left with this average kind of. But it isn't that, and this is a rather gory imagery per se. But I frequently talked about this mechanism of enlightenment as a funneling right. So let's say we have this broadness of the whole and then that slowly funneling and we could apply that to simply the focus of the mind or paying attention or attunement to those things that are subtle.
Speaker 2:So you're going cross through a desert of what seems like numbness or what seems like boredom or what seems like just completely why, even then, nothing going on. But it's not that it's nothing going on that we've just. You know, you go to a concert and you stand well, I don't think you even have to stand next to the speaker your ears are ringing for whatever three days and you can't hear the normal volume of things going on because you still have the ringing of ears. So if volume was at 10 and now it's lowered and your head is still ringing at 10 and you have anything playing at 5 or God forbid at 1, that might as well not even exist. So the experience of life is numbed out of us.
Speaker 2:But as we move through this funnel thing and we get to a pinhole and this is either a pinhole, we could say, in our focus state of mind that's why in Zen know, in Zen we frequently talk about single-mindedness and that focal point of you've driven to just this pinhole thing. And if you pass through that pinhole and like I said, this is a little bit, you know, gross of a imagery, but I think it illustrates it so if you're sensitive, or if you have children in the room, as you pass through this pinhole of a focus thing of an attunement, of a single thing that you've, that you've entered into. In a sense, your skin's ripped off of you and you fall through. This pinhole becomes a door and you fall through it to the other side, and the other side is the prodigiousness of the universe, the prodigiousness, the great experience, the entirety of humanity.
Speaker 2:So, essentially, you almost return back. It's this kind of as if it were a warm hole or a black hole, but it pitches you back into the life that you just left, however skinless, and in that sense raw, and in that sense the calloused, and so the boredom and and in that sense, the calloused, and so the boredom and all of these avoidances, the numbness, all of these things are stripped away. That we could say, is a state of compassion, but it has an element of wisdom. So there's a rawness to the experience, but it has an element of wisdom. So there's a rawness to the experience, because sometimes people claim that you know Zen and the Buddhist. It sort of does the opposite.
Speaker 3:No, I can't disagree with more with that statement.
Speaker 2:So you're raw and every gentlest of breeze you feel, so that your experience of life is magnified, but not magnified by running away from the subtlety or from from from unpleasant experience or whatever. You, you're, you're there, you, you're, you're in it and because, and this is and because and this is I can't trumpet about this enough this idea of wisdom as the two wings of the same. So one wing is the compassion and the other one wisdom, I mean they're synonymous almost, if you really get into the detailed philosophies of it. But the idea is you absolutely feel this is the bodhisattva thing, right, the pangs and the suffering of the world, but the wisdom allows you to maneuver within it without drowning in it Because we get that.
Speaker 2:What's that Empathy? Right, and empathy is another one of those words that's thrown around, and I'm empathic, empathic, empathy can be such crippling as if it were a disease, right.
Speaker 3:Without the wisdom.
Speaker 2:Right and I hope our listeners who are empaths and you understand what I mean here. I'm not criticizing the state of being. What I'm saying is that without wisdom it's unhealthy. The compassion with wisdom has a, there's a power of function and an understanding of the limitations of my function and how I can best participate in the world around me. Otherwise I'm drowning in it.
Speaker 3:Right. So you're using the Zen metaphor that I'm just going to piggyback off of. In Zen, we call this earth what kohe? The ocean of suffering, right? So you're like a lifeguard on the side, that is the bodhisattva. Looking down, you see somebody drowning. You use compassion. It means you literally have to jump in to the ocean and you're submersed into kohe, into this world, this life. Every inch of your body is submersed in the water, feeling. If it's cold, if it's hot, if there are waves, you're there, you're entrenched in that, and then you can't just jump in and then not know how to swim or just grab the person and then they are struggling for their life and you allow them to punch you in the face, and now you both are drowning Right Many a lifeguard's been drowned by another person drowning, right.
Speaker 3:So this would be just reckless. No wisdom, empathy, just jumping in without thinking, without planning, without taking some tools with you, and then the wisdom piece is well now, prior to jumping in, I did some training, some suheng. That's what makes that person a lifeguard. There's countless hours of training and knowledge and understanding. That all equates to wisdom. So when you jump in, you jump in with your banya, right, yeah, wisdom. Then you have to swim and then you can properly rescue a person. Leave all those tools behind, you're just jumping into it Two drowning people is what you get.
Speaker 3:It's an abyss that will just suck you in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. So this idea of numbness is, I think, largely connected to our, you know, we've sort of been hijacked, like I was saying, you know, the exploitation of that human tendencies. You know, monks take vows and some of the vows are aimed at that very premise. Right, like monks are, you know, not allowed to watch people fighting, for example, right, or sort of the violence thing. Because the idea is, you know, initially one is repulsed by repulsive things. Then if one over time watches the repulsive things sufficiently, that repulsive thing sufficiently, that repulsive thing becomes, then becomes curiosity, and then becomes normalization and then becomes want you like it, you like it, and so you want more of it. So it's this kind of that which initially a person might have found repulsive if exposed to it sufficiently enough. There's a stabilization, normalization, and then, out of the absence of it, there's sort of normalize. Now that continuous trajectory turns into now we want it. So there are certain vows that monks take that take into account this human nature and warn us against falling prey to these things.
Speaker 3:It's a common complaint I hear nowadays and it is valid. With the advent of certain social media apps, there's instant access to just any kind of information, whereas when I was growing up I'm not trying to sound like someone going to nostalgia, or my generation or era was better. That's not the point of this. It's just a fact that there was less access, let's say, to seeing a violent video.
Speaker 1:Now you can again a particular act you can see.
Speaker 3:every kid can see that yeah so you can see really aggressive acts of violence.
Speaker 3:And not only one you know, the algorithm kicks in and it just connects the dots to many different other videos that all have violence, extreme forms of it, not just people fighting with fists. No, you have weapons, you have blood, you have gore. Actually, there are a lot of videos of accidents and death that are out there. So if that's not being monitored and regulated, then exactly what you're saying can happen. People grow up being desensitized to violence. Then what happens when you're desensitized to violence? It becomes your norm. You don't feel?
Speaker 2:You don't feel about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's no feeling. And then you know, the worst case scenario is when you like it or you're drawn to it.
Speaker 2:Which is a process, for for many people, this is a process of sort of of that exact thing.
Speaker 2:this it's an evolution towards you know, for lack of better word towards darkness it's funny because it brought up nostalgia and and again, I think partially as a, as a um, that counter response to, I don't know, maybe like two years, three years.
Speaker 2:You know, I, like I said, I I stick my head out of, you know, into the world, I look around, see what's new and you know, next angle comes and I, I disconnect, but the, the nostalgia as the new, fashionable thing, right so appliances, right, appliances, microwaves, and, and your blenders and your ovens and your refrigerators, uh, the, the colors of them, it's like the flashback colors to like the 60s, and even you know, the no screen display but knobs. So they're kind of returned to this note. There's a big, seems to me, like this whole thing of nostalgia, furniture and nostalgia. Like I said, I've seen this in appliances and particularly striking because the colors, the color schemes of back in the day, they're, they're, they're either, um, not silver and and metal and not futuristic. They're, they're pinks and and baby blues and and and bright reds the fire engine reds yeah.
Speaker 2:And all of the, and you know, aqua colored and and the whole entire microwave set, the microwave oven and your refrigerator same color, with rounded corners, which is kind of futuristic of the time, but not futuristic of this time in a sense, because this time the futuristic is the sharp angles of the Cybertruck Right.
Speaker 3:they didn't follow those trends.
Speaker 2:And so I think, as a part of the general psyche, we are trying to kind of change the trajectory a little bit, or at least slow down that movement towards that, that other extreme and and uh, uh.
Speaker 3:But also there's a like everything we're talking about there's something at its best, something at its worst. There's a you know connecting to something healthy in a healthy manner, versus unhealthy fashion, because even nostalgia there's in general. You know, you can be nostalgic, you can visit the past. You can, you know, go back to your memories and look at old movies. The thing is, if you become stuck there, then then essentially, it becomes what we're talking about. You're just numbing yourself, castrating yourself from the reality that's around you, yeah, or the real thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's it's. You know your nostalgic memories.
Speaker 2:If they they come, you know we could say if you want to take a zen thing, it's like you could say hello to them, just don't serve them tea right, because if not, they'll pack their bags and they'll move in right tea with the habit for you know, usually with that, but it's an average two hours, you know, and it's simply because you know that's han chum, you know the, the old way of counting han chum is chadjuk in myojin, so it's a two-hour window and then usually people, people, but it's it's um, yeah, the sitting and dwelling and all of this thing, like I said, it's, it's that dynamic is interesting because it's numbing of one thing, um, by use of another thing, and this kind of back and forth time travel, and so we have, yeah, we have the numbness.
Speaker 2:Uh, I think we've done something with this numbness idea as a you know single word with you know, yeah, because there's that, uh, like you said, the origin perhaps of this conversation on sunday, that that I was ever so briefly a part of, and was this kind of particular kind of numbness, of numbing, you know, drinking until your teeth are numb so that you feel nothing, remember nothing, know nothing, or using, or whatever it may be. Numbness means not wakefulness. Yeah, the complete opposite numbness means not wakefulness.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so the Zen thing would say be on a lookout for numbness in all of its various forms, this one with the addiction and the kind of certain behaviors that numb us to an experience or frequently to a memory. It's almost a much more common thing, it is the louder end of the spectrum and then we have, like we said, these more subtle things. It's the numbness to, or the absence of awareness we could say, which we could call it ignorance if you wanted to, really. So this numbness is in opposition to wakefulness, there isn't a sensitivity in numbness, so we don't pick up the less obvious, the less perceivable, which is again in opposition to the Zen principle of wakefulness and really complete participation in life. Because in participation in life, from the Zen thing, you're attuned to what is not what you're like, whatever, what is how it is, as it is. So that's the attunement to a complete experience of life. So numbness can take various more louder or less louder, if you want to call it that expressions of it. Call it that expressions of it, and obviously it's easier to at least note the very pronounced types. And then we move progressively down and this is where you know the whole therapy concept, I think, and I don't want to speak for psychologists, I only know Buddhist psychology, if you will.
Speaker 2:I don't want to speak for psychologists, I only know Buddhist psychology, if you will and call it that. But it is the fact that we generally, people don't know to themselves and they're overwhelmed by the going on, so the subtlety and their numbnesses and the quietudes those things are seen by the going on. So the subtlety and their numbnesses and the quietudes and the that those things are seen by the therapist. And the therapist says oh, have you noticed how, when you were saying this and and you avoid it addressing the thing and blah, blah, blah, blah, you know the psychotherapeutic kind of thing of just bouncing, holding a mirror to the person, essentially right um I'm laughing I'm laughing because you're, because you talk about the psychology piece and I'm talking about the Zen piece then Because, yeah, zen, I'm thinking.
Speaker 3:Zen is like reading the emotional user manual. If you think about a user manual for anything that you buy, it's going to give you the step-by-step instructions on how to construct the object, it's going to explain to you how to maintain it, what tools you need, on how to construct the object, it's going to explain to you how to maintain it, what tools you need, and then it's going to give you the troubleshooting section. So you're going to be very familiar with all facets of the emotional world how to maintain a healthy state of mind, how to troubleshoot when problems come. And this is a constant state of wakefulness that we're searching for.
Speaker 2:Not numbness and avoidance. Might as well go down the route of. I'm talking about this thing you're talking about that thing I wrote, I don't know, when just a little here.
Speaker 2:I jot down things. So in terms of therapy, right, it's a little thing that I had written down and then maybe I'll share a little poem. How about that? Yeah, that would be great. So therapy, it seems to me, is a practice of returning a person back to themselves minus the delusions and confusions. They walk away lighter and closer to their true self and therefore closer to heaven.
Speaker 2:Sad Zen monk about therapists said a Zen monk about therapists, but sort of to connect maybe to that rawness of experience. I did write a little poem a few years ago. It's not exactly well. Whatever it is what it is, and I think a bookend via poem is cute. Let's go with that one. So it hasn't the title, but here it is.
Speaker 3:Maybe someone in the audience we can.
Speaker 2:Oh, suggest a title.
Speaker 3:Suggest a title Suggest a title and win a signed copy.
Speaker 2:I don't know something. Yeah, the breaking free from the great bondage is accompanied by the thunderous crack of the ribcage ripped open, dust of the settled thoughts and ideas spewing into the air, the vain vines of bondage snapping like whips. The cage ripped open, take and fillet your heart. Stretch it open so that each of its four chambers encompasses the four directions. You must catch the world in your heart, the whole of it, like a butterfly net, swoop it down over the existence, over all of the existence. Be sure to catch it all, for if you leave a single speck of dust behind, it will tip the scales and you will lose it all. Once again, I am Myung An Sunim.
Speaker 3:I'm Dr Ruben Lambert. I like to name that poem Pokemon Gotta Catch them All. Pokemon Gotta Catch them All, gotta Catch them All.
Speaker 2:Until next time, take care of yourselves and each other.
Speaker 3:From my heart to yours. If you like what you heard, pass it on to someone else so that they can enjoy it and learn from this podcast also.
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